Virtual world evangelist Richard Bartle has made the news yet again in the MMO blogosphere. Richard Bartle the grandfather of virtual worlds, recently posted a blog article about some concerns he’s having with Blizzard’s new WoW expansion: Wrath of the Lich King. In particular, there is a quest in which an NPC advocates the use of torture to complete the quest. It’s not the actual torture that concerns him rather it’s the lack of choice that the player is given in order to complete a particular quest.
Given the repugnant nature of actually being asked to torture someone — even in a virtual world — it’s only reasonable that many players would feel very uneasy about engaging in this activity. Bartle has rightly asked some serious questions about competence and motivations of the designer of this quest. Why didn’t the game designer responsible at least offer some alternate way of getting the same result given the controversial nature of the quest?
Regular readers of Wolfshead Online know that we dealt with this very same question quite extensively only four months ago in an article entitled WoW: Is Blizzard Promoting Virtual Torture and Murder with the Deathknight Hero Class? Back in July of 2008 I was the first blogger to publicly raise questions about a Death Knight quest in Wrath of the Lich King that involved torturing innocent civilians under the protection of the (conveniently) evil Scarlet Crusade.
Some Choice Please Mr. Designer
At a glance the sensational issue here is the that a Blizzard quest designer would ask WoW players to engage in torture to complete a quest. However, the real question gets to the heart of the fundamental flaw in mainstream MMOs today: why don’t players have real and meaningful choices?
Bartle asks this core question in a quote from his website:
Now while this means that WotLK is not yet torture for me, there is some torture involved. Specifically, this quest. Basically, you have to take some kind of cow poke and zap a prisoner until he talks.
I’m not at all happy with this. I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don’t want to torture a prisoner, but there didn’t seem to be any way to do that. Worse, the quest is part of a chain you need to complete to gain access to the Nexus, which is the first instance you encounter (if you start on the west of the continent, as I did). So, either you play along and zap the guy, or you don’t get to go to the Nexus.
This is precisely the same point that I made back in July in my original article that was somehow missed by Scott Jennings and others in the mainstream blogosphere. Except in the example that my article was based on, the player playing the Death Knight has NO real choice to refuse to torture civilians. If they refuse, then they can not proceed out of the phased Death Knight starting zone and are condemned forever in virtual Limbo. Therefore the player must do evil deeds in order to progress with his/her Death Knight. Not only is there no choice, the player is forced into role-playing a morally “evil” alignment and then at the conclusion of the grand quest is forced yet again by the designers to play a morally “good” alignment. Are we getting dizzy yet?
Comparing Apples and Oranges
I’d like to briefly address one of Scott’s points on the issue of torture that is not really related to the issue of lack of choice for players. He makes the rationale that torture in the grand scheme of things is not as egregious as thousands of untold killings perpetrated by the typical WoW player:
Which is all very ironic considering that games like World of Warcraft are all about slaughtering millions of creatures so you can take their stuff and get more powerful so you can take more stuff from more creatures you slaughter. In that context poking people with a painstick before you slaughter them seems like a minor issue.
I would contend that in the case of humanoids, they are by design hostile to you and killing them is an act of self-defense which is morally acceptable. This is why that Blizzard doesn’t allow you to kill NPCs of your own faction who are not hostile and of course children NPCs. Even opposing factions can’t kill the other faction’s child NPCs. Torturing someone is not an act of self-defense. Killing someone who wants to kill you is.
Can a Computer Make You Cry?
The exchange between Matt Mihaly and Richard Bartle is well worth reading. Mat commits the classic “it’s just a video game” fallacy. Dear Matt, the whole point of MMOs and virtual worlds is that you are *supposed* to willingly suspend your disbelief and feel that the world and its inhabitants are *real*. I recall the early Electronic Arts ad campaign that posed the revolutionary question: can a computer make you cry? Every designer worth their salt should read that manifesto.
Great works of art, literature, film all have one thing in common: they transport us and they move us — even though we realize they are representations and interpretations of the world around us. It is our primary function as game designers to convince you that our game worlds whether fantasy or real are as consistently believable as possible. That is why I become a game designer.
Concluding Thoughts
As is typical these days on forums and blogs, the usual gang of sophomoric idiots has attacked and vilified Richard Bartle. Bartle has defended his position quite eloquently to the masses — most who just stepped off the Counterstrike bus and who have no clue about game design. It’s clear that many people who play video games and MMOs have become desensitized. These “gamers” enjoy the sense of amoral escapism that has little to no consequences and are only too willing to attack Richard Bartle like he’s some kind of MMO version of Jack Thompson eager to snuff out their virtual freedoms. I hope we have Richard Bartle around for a long time to keep asking the inconvenient questions that the poor little darlin’s have trouble answering.
-Wolfshead
Of course.. Bartle gets a significant detail wrong: You’re not forced to torture the Blue Dragonflight servant in the Borean Tundra. The quest is completely optional, and the big red dragon nearby gives you a lift to Coldarra (and by extension, the Nexus) whether you do the quest or not. So in essence, you do have a choice: Accept or Decline. Also, the questgiver flat out states that inflicting torture is considered an immoral act among his faction (the Kirin Tor), but.. If some lone operative would use the torture device while he was distracted, he wouldn’t refuse using any and all information obtained. Wink wink, nod nod. The quest is, in essence, an anvilicious criticism on rendition.
However, Bartle’s underlying point remains intact. In general, games do a lousy job in depicting the consequences of (im)moral choices, and the moral dilemmas are done poorly. In this case, the one thing that probably disturbs people the most is the echoes of the Milgram experiment, which shows that quite a lot of people will not push back enough if enticed to commit an immoral act, provided there is an authority (the questgiver, or even Bartle himself) saying that committing the immoral act is necessary. Or even a more disturbing and depressing realization: People do the quest for the quest reward. Skinner’s positive reinforcement works.
It’s strange…
I do not like this torture quest idea either.
But at the same time, I just played God of War 2 this morning, and, in order to advance in the quest, I had to willingly take a wounded soldier, put him on a conveyor that brought him under giant crushing wheels. He died, but they broke, and I was able to pass.
There is no other option. You have to sacrifice him. Only… It didn’t feel horrible. Perhaps because I was certain he was dead, as he did not move or speak until the wheels crushed him. But hearing him scream at that moment made me wince.
the GoW serie is extremely violent, even sadistic at times, and there are no choices either. And still, it works. I’m constantly grinning while playing it, and it is a real outlet for stress and violence.
Why the difference? :S
I think the entire issue is biased and overrated. Because you take the aspect of say The death knight class’ quest line of torture and the one that Bartle mentioned (this one ive done) The choice you ultimately have is… Don’t create a death knight and stop there. Or don’t go to the nexus… and move on. There’s your choice. I think it’s a hard reality but that’s just the point you DO have a choice and you either make the choice to continue on or you advert from the action if it tickles your morals that much.
Like I said its biased. You have to kill “something” to gain advantages and or level up in WoW even things like wolves, deers, turtles etc that are “yellow” to you and are not harmful/threatening has to be killed. It is in fact a video game you may hate when people say it, but that’s just the reality.
The bias thoughts have to simply stop, you have a choice to either not play WoW or play it.
Then you have a choice to pick what side/faction you want to play which alters some of your play style ( anything that has to do with the Forsaken has all sorts of poisonings and tortures/deaths attached to them)
Then you can pick your class.
And if you want to go to certain areas and do certain things you make the “choice” to pertake in the criteria or pre-reqs. You have a “choice” to say “I don’t like this” and not do it for whatever the reason.
Fact is you have a choice what all of the people who complain don’t like, is that they don’t like the inherent result of that choice to advert from said action.
Well that’s Tuff.
Nothing is fair. If blizzard didn’t put such an in-depth story line into say, the death knights and they’re rise and fall then people would complain it doesn’t hit home with an epic feel or pertain to lore. Now that they stuck strongly to lore something is found to be wrong with that. Everyone cant be happy and the “majority” do the quest takes but 10seconds they move on and never even think twice because it’s a game the quests fall right into the same category as kill 20 turtles bring back 20 turtle shells which results in 40 dead turtles. /shrug, where’s all the fuss about that and I definitely don’t agree with animal cruelty.
In conclusion my overall point is you do have a choice. But you cant be upset if u don’t like the result of said choice. I may come off as harsher in tone but its all just double standards in some cases, bias thoughts in others and for some they just wont be happy regardless. I can easily play the animal activist card and all of you (all of us I should say) would be morally guilty, I wont go into skinning professions/poaching ( as u see it can get ridiculous under the same thought pattern ) etc. lol.
I just wish if your going to complain about torture being morally wrong. Fine, but complain about animal killings ( red or yellow or blue tagged its still an animal ), attacking a creature/mob who isnt provoked etc. Honestly its all morally irrelevant in a game such as this where u will cross all sorts of morals to succeed. To each his own as well all of are entitled to your opinions and I respect them and see the general concern of this, but you cant condemn one and point at the developers in shame without talking about them “all” it needs to be fair.
Its not about choice, theres choices you have. But you cant be upset if u don’t like the result of the choice you would “like” to make.
I know the quest and think people really need to understand Bartle: He wished for an “I refuse” option, an option within his or his chars moral values. But he was obviously also very troubled by the torture quest.
I also wondered about the torturer NPC. He was overdoing and well, he was a torturer. The gameplay atmosphere of Northrend is dark and brutal, so it perfectly fit the theme.
The call for more meaningful moral choices is futile: people do not care that much about it! We actually hardly read the quest text. The game and quest events are very scripted, linear.
Who wonders that a questdesigner had the idea of torturing people for a supposedly good cause or greater good. It happens on Guantanamo and other places in the real world.
I did not feel that the quest promoted this kind of atrocity or justified it in any way.
It left me at unease, and I thought “Knights, shiny armor, holy priests… they do what my Warlock would not have done.”
But you are on their side, and they do things you do not approve. This is very self-reflexive. The question is, is it responsible from Blizzard to allow such a quest in a game that is played by teens? Not only teenagers, also older family fathers and older players in general, but quite lot of them.
I bet, given the average IQ shown on the WoW forum, that most argue “it is a game i do not care” and really do not care or think much about it. But I am afraid some might really pick up the notion that torture is a viable means if you do it for a good cause!
Longasc i dont think most of them would pay much attention in either direction. I havent done the death knight quest yet, but I did the one for the nexus and honestly you coulda told me the guy hates taking a bath and im chucking water balloons at him it wouldve been no real difference. Its all but 5-10seconds, I would understand if blizzard had the guy on the ground crawling with blood everywhere but thats no where near the case. (i doubt the death knight quest is like this as well )
This is why i dont really understand so much of the ranting and raving about morals when its not being done across the board. We kill more animals than anything else in WoW. I wouldnt say a thing if all of the “questionable actions” were being complained about. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but they need to be told when they arent being fair across the board.
That they don’t think about these things, especially when there is a storytelling difference between killing beasties and killing sentients, is a critical indictment of the lack of intelligence and morals of the player base. No, we don’t come to games to debate Schindler’s List, but to completely turn off your brain is pathetic. It’s the same old “they see a powerup” argument; mindless play might be good for something like Peggle, but when there are potential psychological ramifications, ignoring them blithely with a blanket “it’s a game” is denying how our brains work. Garbage in, garbage out.
Of course everyone has the “choice” to either subscribe to WoW or not subscribe to WoW but that’s not the point. Blizzard clearly wants people to keep playing WoW. Blizzard also wants people to purchase and play the expansion. Blizzard has even stated that they want everyone to try out the new Death Knight class in all it’s glory.
Therefore, alienating a significant portion of your playerbase by not giving players an in-game choice about how to complete a controversial quest is simply stupid and lazy on their part. The goal of a MMO company and the quest designers they hire should be to keep players playing and offer as many choices and options as possible in order to achieve this. And really, saying that players have the false choice of deciding not to play WoW is just another form of the old forum argument made by trolls:
“If you don’t like it quit”
That is not helpful, it’s not realistic and it does nothing to solve the problem at hand: asking players to commit attrocities such as torture and not giving them any options to progress their Death Knight character.
There are many reasons for killing NPCs in MMOs. Often questgivers will ask you to kill non-aggressive animals so that they can feed their families with the meat that you get. Also their skins are used for clothing. Hunting animals has long been held a completely acceptable form of “killing” and it works in a MMO context too.
Another example of justified killing of non-agressive animals is keeping their numbers down to 1) prevent them from starving to death — a more horrible form of suffering then instant death and 2) to prevent over-grazing and damage to the environment that some animals can cause due to over-population. Again both of these methods have long been accepted practices in the real world and I see no problem with them.
Personally speaking as a player, torturing animals or torturing sentient beings is reprehensible to me. It would be nice if I had the option to “refuse” a quest like this but in the example of the Death Knight quest line you have no choice to refuse the quest. Refusing the quest means your character for all intents and purposes is dead and cannot progress.
There is no moral equivalency to the justified killing of certain non-sentient creatures and sentient humanoids versus torturing them for the pleasure of some sick and twisted individual. Video game or not, this is how I feel personally as a player. Now some may delight in that form of entertainment. Fine, let them have that option, but please don’t force me into behaving like a raving soulless psychopath all because the quest designer was too lazy or didn’t have the creative wherewithal to give players who might be offended by this an actual choice.
But see thats what I mean Wolf. Thats “Your” perception of it but its still “Morally” wrong to people who are vegetarians, etc. Any sort of senseless killing of animals or poaching hits a moral barrier. You can’t spin it to justify your own arguement of the torture quests. Its not troll reasoning (from my point of view and discussion) its common sense.
You can do the quest or stop and do something else. If you dont get to go to Nexus, oh well, you protected your morals. If you dont get to play out the DK class through, oh well there’s “other classes”. You may not like that inherent reality but thats just it you do have a choice. No need to over complicate it which is what many people with biased arguements try to do to smother over the big picture, Once you get offended by something you stop the action.
I would totally agree if Blizzard put say a “God of War” scenario to the quests like someone mentioned above that means it would be TOTALLY different than any quest in WoW history and the graphic nature of it would warrant all of this rant. But thats not the case. The quest programming , feel and what u see graphically is all the same its not “gory” so to speak.
But again, you cant spin other questionable moral acts just to justify your own. Because its what “you” think and how “you” see it. Its not “fact” in regards to virtual nature of our discussion which it appears what your trying to make your “perception” of other questionable moral acts. Just like you took time to give an entire different perspective of killing animals. (And some of which is wrong ,at times we kill animals just to kill them to make gold/money ( poaching ) .
There’s alternate point of views for everything thats why i feel there is a lack of fairness in what all of this ranting, raving and finger pointing comes from. Because people with the opposite opinion are discredited and shunned just as much as people who complain about the couple of torture quests say they get shunned. Everyone has to suck it up, no one will agree and everyone’s morals change when they enter virtual worlds, I doubt you’ll ever stick a rogue sticker on ur back grab 2 knives and go hack at cows in a field for an hour one after the other lol So your morals and what you will and wont do change the moment that loading screen finishes and you step foot in Azeroth.
Like i said i understand what u guys stand for in regards to the topic but i will play the extreme devil’s advocate because out of all the questionable things in online games and console games you cant just pick one and make it the enemy of the world you have to be fair, we do alot more in WoW than 1 to 3 torture quests.
It seems Blizzard has crossed the line for many people. Nytro already pointed it out, moral values are quite different for different people.
DEHTA hunting and killing human hunters is for sure a very outrageous offence for PETA members, who are harsh and radical in their approach, but they did not send members on a killing spree ever.
We have to suck it up. There are often things I do not agree with in games. There is also another quest where you give a special serum to a prisoned werewolf who then explodes. The guards call you a monster after that.
I am not sure if our society and Blizzard are desensitized enough to accept torture in a MMO as a given, but that we are talking about it already shows that this is not the case. But I must agree with Nytro, we also must not exaggerate the importance and impact of this quest.
Then we should also talk about Crusader Bridenbrad questchains and the Naaru: http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=30562 A lot of hero warship mixed with religion – in an online game. Is this really okay?
I try to remember some really questionable things that my char did, often justified with just a hollow phrase in the quest description.
I just wonder that Blizzard really implemented the torture quest in this way, you do not see blood, but it is animated and takes quite some time. Unlike other questionable quests or tasks.
Causing pain is different from causing death.
Delighting in either is different from doing something because of the end goal. (Whether or not the goal is acceptable is another thing entirely.)
Slippery slopes actually do have first steps, and desensitization is a clear and present danger to the moral and ethical fabric of a society.
Moral relativism is a cop out and intellectually bankrupt.
Games are all about choice. Setting players up with no-choice “choices” is poor game design.
Well said Tesh! I couldn’t agree more.
As far as torture, notice I or Bartle have not demanded that this quest be removed despite the fact that I’m *personally* opposed to it being in a video game. I’m not going to fall into the trap of having to debate torture or the killing of animals — as it’s not the central issue here. Rather, all we want is an alternate way of getting from point A to point B that doesn’t involve torture.
I think Longasc is right, Blizzard has crossed the line here and I’m wondering about the judgment of the invidivual(s) responsible for approving many of these quests in Wrath of the Lich King.
A smart and competent video game company would realize that a significant number of their customers will feel extremely uncomfortable perpetrating these acts (yes in a video game) and find some way to allow them to complete the quest using alternate means. Giving players a choice would make them feel empowered. Telling them to suck it up or quit is silly and a recipe for bankruptcy. It’s just good business sense.
Y’know, if there were alternate methods of getting the required information, it might be an interesting little sociology/psych experiment to see how many people did choose the torture route.
And yes, giving players options is a good thing, especially in a world where they really don’t have much power to change anything but themselves.
I’m all for more freedom and choices in MMOs. I am also for some actual consequences to temper them too.
At least with the quest that Richard Bartle initially brought up, you as a player can easily decide not to participate in it. You lose nothing except some gold and experience.
On the other hand, if you refuse to torture those civilians in the Death Knight class, you lose everything and are permanently stuck. Do not pass GO! Do not collect $200!
Why is it that I can choose to play every other class in WoW and not be forced to adopt a particular moral stance? If Blizzard were to force players across the board into choosing a particular alignment (as in Dungeons & Dragons) then that would be fine. The problem is this is the first time that Blizzard has required plays to be essentially “evil” in order to unlock the class. Oh and as I have mentioned suddely the player is forced to be “good” after the end of the final Death Knight class. Which is again just more social engineering and amusement park “on rails” MMO design.
Someday I hope we can have a MMO company that stops insulting the intelligence of its subscribers and provides a much deeper virtual experience, that lets players actually get off the golden path of the game designer and self-actualize their avatars.
While I am by no means a fan of WotLK, I do think that complaining about how little a theme park resembles a sandbox is a bit counterproductive. Especially when you’re riding the roller coaster at the same time. There are sandbox games out there, like A Tale in the Desert or Eve Online. The former even lets (and requires, depending on the profession) players to modify the game policies.
Not to sound like an extremist….. but, guys; this is Blizzard we are talking about. The very same Blizzard that let despicable post about the Virginia Tech Tragedy stay posted for hours, the same Blizzard that said there really wasn’t much they could do about sexual predators playing their games, and refused to provide personal information to the FBI about a guild that was publicly advocating pedophilia, and disbanded the guild (which quickly formed under a new name ) instead of cooperating with authorities.
Blizzard fired Tseric because he stood up to the complete and utter waste of skin that are given free reign over the forums, why are people so shocked that they would elect to run 13 year olds through content that advocated torture? It’s Blizzard! Their entire MO is to flip off what they see as convention, but not because they are taking a moral stance…. No….they do this simply because it cost less, or so several Ex Blizzard employees have told me.
I’m not sure I understand why you are saying this. Don’t you want more choice in MMOs and virtual worlds? Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a fantasy MMO that had the polish and beauty of WoW with the choice and sandboxy nature of Eve (never played it, don’t like sci-fi)?
If anything the torture debate shows how inflexible and rigid Blizzard is. They want the cool factor of having torture in their game but they don’t respect players that would find it repugnant?
MMOs will never get better if players keep their mouth shut and don’t complain. Luckily someone of stature in this realm (Bartle) had the courage to say something and hopefully the dolts at Blizzard wake up from their self-congratulatory fog and take notice.
Thank you for posting this Todeswulf. I’m glad the truth is finally coming out about Blizzard’s lax forum enforcement and how they treat their employees. It’s downright despicable what goes on at the forums. The worst element of society are there in all of their sick and twisted glory spewing the vilest forms of hate and insult — yet it takes them days to clean up those posts all because they are too cheap to hire people to police them.
As far as customer service, I usually have a petition submitted each time I play. They have degraded the GM service yet again; now they don’t even speak to you personally anymore. Instead, you get a form letter via the in-game mail. It’s shameful really how poor the customer service is and how lax the enforcement is on the server I play.
It’s also noteworthy to see how rapacious Blizzard is when it comes to filing lawsuits against private WoW servers. It seems when there is money involved they suddenly “care”.
There was. It was called Ultima Online. What I’m saying is that a sandbox game is not by definition better than a theme park game. I play both EvE and WoW, and I’ve found that the worst trolls on either game usually use your argument. If you’re eating an apple and complain that it doesn’t taste like an orange, you will piss off people who happen to like apples.
My problem with Blizzard is that they made a rollercoaster that derails, not that they made a rollercoaster instead of a sandbox.
Wolf, Shalkis makes a perfect example of what I’m trying to say. WoW is what it is, and I know you will argue theres no statistical data to prove this or whatever the rebuttal may be but you’re a minority in your argument. Your argument represents such a small percentage, honestly in your above statement your probably wrong blizzard possibly doesn’t want “you” to continue playing they’d rather you unsubscribe so they wouldn’t have to worry about you. 11 million players I doubt your group breaks half a million or would drop blizzard out of the 11million number. Only because your group is a minority and doesn’t justify the added work which would turn out to be A LOT in regards to moral choices per quests.
Its harsh but thats just how it is, its not a lack of intelligence as Tesh wants to repeatedly say to everyone just because they don’t agree with his overly extended view point. Its simple Wolf, Do I understand you don’t agree with the torture quest? Well yes, I agree with a lot of your points. Do I think your justified in wanting more choice to still get to point B from A within that quest… yes, but well partially from a business stand point.
Wolf you cant expect a company to create games for a small minority or in fact tailor a game for the minority when there are so many others who would simply dont disect trivial things down in this manner. (trivial because its within a virtual game) Look at how games have changed since Super Mario brothers and Street Fighter first hit shelves and arcades. Now we have God of War, Gears of War 1 and 2, WoW, Mortal Kombat and so on. Games that have had overwhelming success do to their brutal nature ( and WoW is the less of that group in regards to brutality).
You may not like it but moral choices to get to points A to B and so on isnt an efficient business practice for the combat video game industry your intention is justifiable but again not efficient. And because you are the minority moral choices (more work, programing etc) isnt feasible. If they do it for the DK quest line then now it opens this can of worms for all the quests wow has. Poisoning animals, water supplies, killing animals, going to villages to kill things, stealing items just to name a small few. They’d end up having to make a moral choice button for almost every other quest in the game, which would be inefficient its like making 1million quest but then having to create another million for the moral choice alternative. Then you’d complain if they did that because what they give you would probably take twice or 3 times as long lol. Its not even efficient to make a server for something like this but it would be the “better” option.
I agree the DK quest line puts you at a brick wall if u don’t want to make that choice, but then ask yourself, why do you want to play the class anyway if its a class specific quest line that defines who they are and what it is, is something you morally don’t agree with? You wouldn’t want to get this quest at level 79 as a barrier to gaining more skill/level to 80 would you lol. Then I could see you being pissed. But the DK chain should tell you “This class is one I morally don’t agree with and Im not going to play it” The ENTIRE class and who they are and their back ground doesn’t fit with you morally, the quest is the class the class is the quest its what they do/did.
It’s the same as not wanting to torture the NPC. You morally disagree with what the class has stood for since its inception in WoW the problem is solved for you, its what the class represents. Like Shalkis said you cant complain about the sandbox game not being a themepark game or vice versa, just like you cant log in on the DK class ie eat the apple and complain that it doesn’t taste like an orange, it wasn’t meant to be an orange in the first place. They cant miraculously turn it into an orange when what it is in the history of wow is an apple, shalkis is trying to point out you even knew it was an apple when you grabbed it even when an orange was next to it.
Wolf the more we beat eachother up over this topic I wonder if you genuinely like WoW the game itself 🙂 (meant to be a funny) Do you really make that many GM tickets?
I don’t think UO currently is state of the art nor is it financially viable as a MMO. There is no way it could could compete with WoW. How is asking for more freedom and choices in a MMO being a troll? I guess I write in the vain hope that someday someone will want to make a better MMO that is not confined to two steel rails and a predetermined destination.
I’d like to hear more about this and understand where you are coming from. Thanks.
I have no data to back up my assertion except my own anecdotal experiences, comments by players on WoW blogs and what I have read on the official WoW beta forums. I wager that there are a significant number of people who play WoW who would be troubled by torturing NPCs. Therefore Blizzard who is a video game company that has prided itself on growing the MMO demographic by being more inclusive would do well create a product that does not intentionally disgust or offend people. My solution to that problem is to offer players a choice when it comes to ways to providing alternate methods of completing a quest that is questionable in nature.
Allowing for players to choose has been very successful for the Fable franchise. Sure it takes more work but the player can finally express themselves more accurately and eloquently within the game structure. Why? Because now *they* can choose how to do things and those choices have demonstrative consequences.
I’ve only advocated putting in alternate methods for special quests that involve questionable content that leave your character (Death Knight) stranded and unable to play. A few quests like that is not going to bankrupt Blizzard. They’ll just have to spend less time making their motorcycles and Level70ETC rock band I guess 🙂
You seem to be missing my point. I prefer to develop the morality of my class by my own deeds and actions. I don’t like MMO companies determining that I am evil, neutral or good or that I should have to role-play those alignments in order to play a class. I’ve heard the argument that because the Death Knight is “evil” I should be prepared to accept any and all evil deeds including atrocities like torture. It is not consistent to have one class requiring a moral alignment essential to playing the class when the rest of WoW’s classes do not.
Fair point. However, I don’t think anyone who wanted to play a Death Knight ever figured they’d be involved in torturing and killing innocent people as part of an important and unavoidable quest. I played a Shadow Knight and Necromancer in EverQuest and I was never required to do evil and questionable things by SOE.
Good question. I still like the game although I find it far too easy. As a former WoW addict and raider, it has a lot to offer players who don’t have copious amounts of time and that’s is the real genius of the game. I mainly play solo now. My petitions are mostly reporting of players with non-RP names (as I play on a RP server now) and chat violations. Players have become the GMs now in WoW given Blizzard lack of proactive enforcement and lax discipline system.
It seems to me that Wolf has trouble with this not only for moral reasons (which someone will always argue with) but for solid gameplay reasons. “Evil” in WoW really isn’t evil by any but the most loose interpretations. As such, Death Knights and quests such as this don’t fit the pattern that Blizzard has trained players to expect. It’s a bit of a bait and switch, which rarely sits well.
That said, with a class called “Death Knight”, there should be some expectation of some unsavory behavior. Of course, that’s the sort of thing that Undead/Forsaken and the Warlock class would seem to suggest as well, but those characters don’t play out the same way.
There’s also the concern about wanting to choose how your character plays. Modern MMOs are “gaming on rails” in a lot of ways. Giving players at least the illusion of choice can alleviate the railroading feeling. Taking choices away from players, even paltry ones like “do this quest if you want to proceed”, can rub the wrong way, and damage the illusion of control. It’s a fragile balance, since player really can’t have much control… but you don’t want to remind them of that.
It seems that WordPress does not like linkspam, so you’ll have to find the related blog postings yourself. Sorry.
And I’m not disagreeing with you. An MMO based on even limited choice could be interesting, as Mass Effect, Fable and Fallout 3 have shown (even though they have 3 sets of rails at most). But WoW is not an MMO based on choice, and trying to make it into one is a fruitless struggle against the underlying design. And annoys people who like it as it is.
There also may be some issues that prevent a choice-based MMO from becoming mass-market-viable. For example, EvE struggles from time to time with the freedom to build sand castles and the freedom to smash them. But that is such a large topic that it could easily derail this discussion and thus should be saved for a separate post.
I’ve made some blog postings about Borean Tundra, Howling Fjord and the Dragonblight, and there was one really bad derailing at the Undercity assault questline (which, to be fair, was caused by a bug, not a flaw in design). But when the rollercoaster works, it can be quite enjoyable.
Well, considering that the end of the chain quest is the forsaking (huhu) of the Lich King’s allegiance through rebellion, maybe Blizzard could have given players the possibility to leave the newbie area at different points in the quest?
That way, if someone follows the Eeeeeevil way, he gets the “complete Death Knight’s Handbook” starter gear and sweet tricks, while another gets… The possibility to be in line with its moral choices and still gets to play its dark-and-not-so-corrupt-anymore cool character (with maybe another gift in exchange, I don’t know, an “Unsullied Heart”, green artefact enabling a heal wave once every 24 hours, or something like that).
Choice, people, and, I think, in line with the rollercoaster!
Choices with consequences could very well be the next true “innovation” in MMO’s. Going to slide away from WoW for a second as I was playing a single player game, and actually felt emotion after making a wrong choice.
In Fallout 3 I was a knight in shining armor. Very helpful and courteous to the citizens of Megaton through the first 10 levels. There was an armory in there that was locked (couldn’t pick it as I didn’t have the proper skill) and when chatting with a friend he said you had to be bad to get in – kill the person with the key. So for “fun” I attacked and killed the person. That made other people in the town angry, and they started attacking me. I had a choice, die, or keep fighting. I ended up slaughtering the entire town.
I felt sick to my stomach after – literally. I was entirely confused – this was just a game, after all, so why does it matter? After years of being firmly planted in MMO-space I finally realized that not one single choice in any of those games made a difference, and I could slaughter away with glee without having a personal impact.
After that I did everything I could to make things right. I couldn’t bring the people back but it shaped the way I played the rest of the game. Perhaps if I had started “evil” it wouldn’t have effected me the way I did, but going from good to bad at the expense of my NPC friends was tough.
Back to WoW – I do agree with the concern, but when I played through the DK zone quests I didn’t even notice the torture quests. I stopped reading WoW quest text 2 years ago. All I had to do for the one was equip two sticks, so instead of cutting the mage in half with my giant sword I just had to hit attack a bunch of times with sticks, until the quest said “completed”. Couldn’t have hurt anymore than taking chunks out of him with a blade. I do understand the concern and may have understood it better if I read the quest, instead of doing the same old, same old.
I discussed this issue on my Blog as well. Not the Death Knight torture quest, which is what many people seem to think is being discussed, but the “Nexus” torture quest.
I believe my point is similar to yours, Wolfshead, in that to get this far almost every single player has already committed countless acts unbecoming of a hero. So, what’s a little torture among friends?
I also think Blizzard dropped the ball in not providing an alternative to torture as a means to extracting information. See my Blog entry here: http://capnjohnsblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/shaking-up-wow.html
Now, you also asked if games make you cry, and I must respond with a Hell, yes! They do!
Eastern Plaguelands. The quest from Pamela Redpath to find her doll. That damn quest chain chokes me up every time I run an Alt through there. I tell myself to pass it by, but it’s such easy XP that I can’t resist, and it gets me, every single time.
Then there’s Ahab Wheathoof of Bloodhoof Village. The first time I ran across this one I wondered why a huge, male Tauren had such a soft spoken, almost effeminate voice. Then Big Red Kitty did a Running of the Bulls, specifically in memory of Ezra Chatterton, and I found out why. I created a Tauren Hunter Alt and brought him to Bloodhoof to take part in the Running of the Bulls, and this time when I spoke to Ahab I could tell quite clearly that it was a young boy speaking the lines. And then Ezra said “I miss my dog so much”. I pushed myself away from my computer and was literally unable to continue playing for a couple of minutes.
Yeah, I’m just a big softy. What can I say? I’m the father of 2 young children and in their own way, both of these quests really hit a parent below the belt.
I think this problem is one of desensitization. As Chris F has noted, given the fact that many players skip the quest text entirely, they may not even understand what is asked of them. Killing becomes transactional, much like a farmer harvesting crops or a fisherman pulling in a net full of fish. That Defias Smuggler you just killed, maybe he had a wife and kids that were starving to death and somehow he got sucked into joining the brotherhood out of sheer survival.
There’s a line in one of the Lord of Rings books where Samwise Gamgee comments on the Southron men dying and asks similar existential questions. The bottom line is that death has become far too easy and cheap in video games. I’d like to see a quest designer force the player to go back and explain to the family of one of the NPCs they so easily killed that now they will be homeless and will probably starve to death this winter. That is the kind of emotional gravity and accountability that is missing from WoW. What a missed opportunity!
That was a great article. I really enjoyed your perspective. The example of having to kill a bunch of sentient life forms all so Tommy Joe Stonefield and his girlfriend could resume their romance was thought provoking when put in those terms.
Every time I walk past Ahab I shed a tear and well up with emotion. His voice beckoning me to help him find his lost dog is a golden moment of greatness for Blizzard. I really love being moved by NPCs. When it happens and it’s rare, it’s a very special moment that I treasure.
There’s another quest like that involved a dying dwarf on the Alliance front that writes a letter to his wife Sara Balloo. It’s based on an actual American Civil War soldier who wrote a letter to his wife as he faced imminent death. The story popularized by the Ken Burns PBS TV series: The Civil War.
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=637
This quest will tug at your heart and make you cry. Read the whole letter and I doubt you will ever be the same again.
Thanks for posting your experiences and observations Chris. I think what happened to you and your examination of conscience is the holy grail of game design. I firmly believe that game designers *want* desperately to make players feel an impact when they “play” their games. It’s a very noble aspiration and I wish more would try to do it — especially in MMOs today.
The very best of art and entertainment seeks to make the audience feel emotion. With MMOs being more participatory form of entertainment there is even greater potential for this. It’s a real shame more hasn’t been done to explore this in current MMO development.
I’m very glad that people have posted many of their moving experiences with quests. This is exactly the kind of MMO that I have been wishing and hoping for. If enough of us start demanding it, perhaps a company with enough vision will step forward and make it happen.
There’s also a few heartwarming Horde moments out there. The Sylvanas Windrunner quest is the most well-known one, but there’s this little-known NPC in the Barrens..
http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=14908#comments
There’s also this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=3822
Shortly following this exchange Pooka herself will go outside to the yard, where she begins crying.
* * *
More proof that there were a handful of designers who really cared about making WoW a living world, alas, there doesn’t seem to have been enough of them.
Ironforge Airport – so much work for something you can only see from Griffin-back, or cliff climbing 😉
Old Ironforge – why is it still there? Just delete it and replace the door with a stone wall.
A long time ago someone cared about Kalimdor, Azeroth and their inhabitants. This was their world, we just played in it. Now it seems Blizzard only care about getting your $15 each month.
I still care. That’s why I’d buy an offline version of it. 😉
It’s funny… I almost get the same vibe from Blizzard as I did from Harry Potter; a labor of love and things of wonder falling victim to its own success.
Its really hard to understand where you are coming from Wolfshead, im going to be completely honest with ya. In fact, i found myself re-reading your initial paragraphs just to make sure my eyes weren’t deceiving me.
I think you have forgotten that this is JUST a VIDEO GAME. Blizzard isnt having players do this to real people. These are animated characters, in an animated world, doing animated violence. No scientific study has EVER linked video game violence and behavior with attitudes or actions in real life. EVER! .. lemme say that again. NEVER. Not once!
In fact, violence is ALL over WOW. But, its JUST this particular piece of violence that you have a problem with. Which doesn’t seem very intellectually honest to me! You decry some acts, while not others. Im sure you feel that this PARTICULAR act has circumstances that cross the line…. but who defines the line? You? Me? Is it the majority that defines the line? Are you the majority? Do you presume to speak for a majority? I’m not buying it. I doubt you even speak for a “significant” number of anything.
The numbers of people you speak of.. the people in forums and whatnot… I have serious doubts that a significant number of ANY of these people are losing ANY sleep over this. Most likely they’ve forgotten Completely! They moved on, got a good night’s sleep and perhaps learned a lesson about picking their battles!
Lets just be honest here, you are speaking your opinions. Which is just fine. You have every right to speak to anyone who will listen, about what you think isnt right in this world.
The same rights apply in reverse, when people like me read and evaluate your arguments with logic (the only person who really cares, is most likely you), and your opinions with our own (i think you need to pick your battles, you are wasting your breath on this one).
I hope my HTML tags work.
I’m not linking violence in video games to any social problems – that’s a red herring. But let me take the bait (yet again) and say, personally I find having to murder your friend and torture innocent civilians repugnant in a game. Yet I am not asking for these things to be removed from the game. All I am asking for is that Blizzard respect those of us who do find this content unacceptable and offer us a choice to to the quests and progress with a hero class in a different way.
As a human being who plays and designs video games I’m very concerned about the slippery slope we are headed for. At what point do we draw the line in the sand? Torture, rape, bondage, incest? Just because it’s a fantasy video game doesn’t make it right.
Are you the majority? Are desensitized, amoral, video gamers who are conveniently indifferent about ethics or values the majority? No one really knows. So I can ask the same questions of you too. Again I’m just voicing a personal opinion. I have no wish to censor anyone’s video games. It seems I have fallen victim to the anti-Jack Thompson witchhunt crowd. Anyone that dares to question or ponder the violence in a video game is beset with these kinds of charges and labeled a “crusader”.
I read the Wrath of the Lich King beta forums and followed the debate on this very issue. I believe that a substantial number of players find torture in a video game questionable to say the least. Any smart video game company would do well to be aware of the values and sensibilities of their customers.
Does it make you feel uncomfortable that there are people out there that feel sickened by torture in a video game? Yet acceptance of violence in any shape or form is somehow the norm for you. It’s astounding how these days right is wrong and wrong is right. George Orwell was prophetic indeed.
I’m sure few are losing sleep over this issue just as very few lose sleep over extended maintenance on patch day yet we still love to talk about it. Still, that does not make discussion of this issue null and void. In this little corner of the world I like to discuss the things that I believe. I welcome disagreements.
I’ll keep wasting my breath till my dying breath. Beliefs and opinions are always worth fighting for — especially when they contradict the herd mentality that we see today’s in video game culture.
Mass slaughter of mobs is not the same as torturing innocents. Most mobs are vicious, aggressive, hostile, or an enemy in some way. It is self-defense or pre-emptive self-defense.
A lot of people generally consider themselves the “hero” or the “good guy” when they play RPGs. This is part of what they enjoy about the RPG experience. Forcing them to torture innocents, with no other option, totally destroys that immersion and ruins the fun.
This is why I have never been able to play a GTA game for more than an hour or so. No matter how great the game is, I eventually just can’t stomach the idea of being a “bad guy.”
-Michael
Muckbeast – Game Design and Virtual Worlds
http://www.muckbeast.com
Have spent the last hour reading these comments, lol, have to quit coming here late at night.:)
“As a human being who plays and designs video games I’m very concerned about the slippery slope we are headed for. At what point do we draw the line in the sand? Torture, rape, bondage, incest? Just because it’s a fantasy video game doesn’t make it right.”
This Wolf concerns me a great deal. As one is accepted many times the others can follow with less resistance.
Learned a lot of things I never knew, especially amazing is Blizzards dealings with sexual predators? Never heard about that one. But I guess not surprising. concerning the total lack of control on their forums.
“A long time ago someone cared about Kalimdor, Azeroth and their inhabitants. This was their world, we just played in it. Now it seems Blizzard only care about getting your $15 each month.”
Yep when I first played WoW so many years ago one could tell they cared, customer service reps really existed and “gasp” I even talked to some of them!
And for those here who have put Wolf in a “small narrow minded” group of society might as well toss me in there to because torture is unacceptable to me also.
Thanks John for bringing up some very well written quests that tend to pull on your heart strings. Unfortunately for me when I started playing WoW missed some of them because my gaming friends at the time were to young to care about reading quests and rushed right past them. Never understood this mentality because part of being in a virtual world is becoming involved with the environment.
“I still care. That’s why I’d buy an offline version of it.”
Tesh is there an offline version of it?
Curtis, nope, but I’ve argued repeatedly and extensively for an offline WoW. It’s a pipe dream of mine, but it really could make sense in a market gone mad, especially since the game design of WoW is largely solo and small group based (network play?), as Chris F notes on occasion.
I agree Tesh, I would gladly pay for a offline version of WoW, or any other game I have enjoyed in the past for that matter.